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Doble- at this point, she’s admitted to so much sexual activity in her (now 3 1/2 year) affair that there’s no lower to go. I’ve given up trying to find out if there was more there or other guys, so it’s not that.
I’m trying to figure out if it is possible to ever stop this from destroying a future together. In the day or two distance from hearing the latest bombshell, I haven’t changed my belief that staying with her would eliminate my own self-respect. I am/was really committed to her and remain so but her complete lack of any regard for me, and to a lesser extent our children, for such a long time, through so many good times and bad, with so many chances to end it and clear the air with me, has made me realize she never wanted this on some level.
Despite her saying that she wants to remain married, I’m not really feeling that to be the truth. She just wants to remain comfortable. She can find that elsewhere.

Looking for Honesty - I don't want to prod the wound but I guess there's no getting away from it. It's the only way to disinfect something and try to heal it if possible. I know she hasn't been very communicative with you in general and it sounds like she's been rug sweeping this, for years, but do you have ANY idea or sense of why she would do this? And for so long? Is she able to explain this at all? is there any thing that might help you to understand this at all? I personally could not comprehend this - I can comprehend a one night stand, but I can't comprehend 3.5 years with some creep. And he'd have to be a creep to do this. Where I personally could not reconcile with this is because to me - and this may not be you at all - but I would feel like I've seen such a dark side of her that I could not even imagine existing. 3.5 years of a parallel relationship, lying and cheating. What kind of person will do this? That would make me question what she is like as a person, if there's a whole side I did not and could not know. It's like finding out that there's a hidden path in your backyard that leads to a whole nother country you had no idea existed and you don't know if it's full of werewolves or what. It's a complete unknown. To me, to even consider reconning in any real way, I'd have to start to know the unknown. Why did she do this? And "I don't know" is not an acceptable answer because....they always know. They DO know, they're just ashamed. But if she wants you to be vulnerable in the future, she has to be vulnerable right now.

at this point, she’s admitted to so much sexual activity in her (now 3 1/2 year) affair that there’s no lower to go. I’ve given up trying to find out if there was more there or other guys, so it’s not that.
I’m trying to figure out if it is possible to ever stop this from destroying a future together.

LFH,

I’m sorry (but not surprised) this has spiraled so much from your WW’s initial "disclosure" to where you are now. In my previous response to you (advising you to "pump the brakes" on your "I’m lucky, it could be worse" declaration), I shared I had a similar position until I got the "full truth". Before I got there through the full written disclosure and the polygraph, I had an epiphany much like you are having. I asked myself "does it REALLY matter if it was 3 men, 7 or 11". Does it REALLY matter if it was just oral or dozens of sessions of intercourse"? For me, cheating is cheating. Broken vows are broken vows." At the end of the day, I had "enough information to end the marriage". If I chose that route, the number of APs, number and types of sex and how long it went on, didn’t really matter. BUT if we were going to reconcile, I HAD to know the full scope and truth. Firstly, I had to know what I was forgiving. Secondly, there could be no more secrets/lies between us. That had been the state of the "marriage" for 38 years. THAT couldn’t continue. Thirdly, (and this was the most important part for me). My wife had to be able to show me that I mattered enough to be truthful about her infidelities regardless of the impact of being honest was to her. While cheating, lying about it in real time and lying to me now, she had been extremely selfish. Only caring about her needs and the impacts to her. For us to reconcile, I had to see that I mattered to her and she was capable of not being selfish. Part of that was disclosing EVERYTHING.

In short, I had enough information to end the marriage, I didn’t have enough to save it (or even want to). It sounds like you may be in a similar place……

Also.....don't just let her blame HIM because a lot of women will do that. Maybe some men too, but mostly women. Oh, he dominated me, Oh, I was afraid of him, Oh, he made me do it, and all of that is bullshit. Oh he blackmailed me, blah blah, it's all bullshit. So don't buy that. You have to know WHY SHE STARTED THIS UP, WHY SHE STAYED IN IT FOR 3.5 YEARS and WHY SHE ENDED IT. And it has to be from HER point of view and motivation, not blaming somebody else. Many women just want to play the victim card - even the Jumbotron woman is trying to blame her boss now. A lot of women try to play weak, helpless little thing and it's all bullshit. I say this as a woman and I've seen women play this card, and it's all bullshit. She knows why and she needs to tell you, you need to know and try to understand this part of her and if it's still there and how it might have affected you at other points or in the future. We all need to KNOW the person we are with....nobody wants to find out they're married to Bernie Madoff or someone like that. It's not just about sexual stuff, it could be anything.

@ImaChump

does it REALLY matter if it was 3 men, 7 or 11". Does it REALLY matter if it was just oral or dozens of sessions of intercourse"? For me, cheating is cheating. Broken vows are broken vows.

Do you really believe this?

I understand your broader point, but I believe it overlooks the fundamental principle of proportionality. Surely the nature and scale of a betrayal matter; most people distinguish between a singular, localized lapse in judgment—which is painful but perhaps repairable—and the discovery of a systematic, high-frequency double life involving extreme behaviors. There is a visceral threshold where a betrayal moves from being merely unacceptable to being psychologically insurmountable.

I’ve always maintained that the deeper the betrayal, the more personal self-respect one must trade away to stay. We can see this in a simple thought experiment. If you forgive a one-time affair with a colleague, your peers may view you as a person of great character or resilience. Some may say I couldnt or wouldn't do the same but are probably unlikely to view you poorly.However, if you forgive a partner who has spent years engaging in high-risk, anonymous, and frequent encounters with dozens of strangers, doing extreme sex acts those same peers will likely question your grip on reality or your sense of self-worth. Or perhaps think you have a fetish. This shift in reaction occurs because we instinctively know that the depth of the depravity changes the "cost" of the forgiveness required.

Surely the more extreme or deep a betrayal you have to forgive, the more self-respect you have to trade in as a price." The bottom line is that the truth matters deeply. You cannot authentically forgive a wrong that you haven't fully accounted for. To think otherwise is to mistake "moving on" for simple rug-sweeping, which denies the victim the agency to understand exactly what they are being asked to overlook

This also brought to mind a strange paradox in how we process betrayal: the tendency to view multiple past transgressions as a "bundle" that is somehow less egregious than a single new offense after a confrontation. When a cheater is caught and subsequently admits to several other previous encounters, those past actions are often treated as part of the same original sin, whereas one additional encounter post-discovery is seen as a total dealbreaker.

​I’ve never fully grasped this logic. The common defense is that the cheater didn't "realize" the impact until they saw their partner’s pain actualized, but let’s be honest: cheaters aren’t children. In the vast majority of cases, they are perfectly aware of the devastation their actions would cause if discovered. Why, then, are three separate betrayals prior to discovery viewed less harshly than one single lapse afterward? It suggests a flaw in our perception, where we prioritize the timing of the confession over the actual volume of the deceit. Perhaps that’s a discussion for another time.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:44 PM, Friday, March 20th]

DRSOOLERS, I've been on this site for over ten years now and the one thing that never ceases to amaze me is just how hard infidelity hits people. The specifics do not seem to matter in the least. It ALL hits like a freight train. Emotional affais, one night stands, multiple affairs, long term affairs, prostitutes, whatever, all have the same devastating impact on the betrayed spouse.

Do you really believe this?

Dr. Soolers,

First of all, I ALWAYS speak for myself and my own personal experience when I respond or post here. I referenced an earlier post of mine where I told OP to "pump the brakes" on his thinking he "was lucky and it could be worse". I used examples from my own experience and how I was feeling at the time.

So yes, I REALLY do believe what I posted in the statement you copied. I "get" what you are saying about proportionality and all that but that doesn’t apply to me. I used the numbers 3, 7 and 11 and going from "only oral to multiple events of intercourse" because that is what I experienced. I was in a place of pleading, digging, offering "get out of jail free" cards and even contacting the APs from affairs 20-25 years prior to "get all the details". I was offering my wife the gift of reconciliation and having a more deeper and meaningful relationship than we had ever had. But to achieve that, there could be no secrets. As far as the cheating itself, a "singular, localized lapse of judgement" (which I think is a laughable way to describe ANY infidelity BTW) was never an option for me. I was always in the space of "multiple, APs, multiple years, multiple sex acts". I’m in "double life" space despite the final numbers. That is why I say "I had enough info to end the marriage". The Rubicon had already been crossed for me. Since my wife was a virgin when we met, the Rubicon was crossed with one affair. Whether it was a ONS or a 2 year fling with a colleague. I just have the misfortune of having experience both of those. Along with about any kind of infidelity (including same sex) there is.

I try not to pass judgement on how anyone reacts to and experiences infidelity and more specific their own betrayal. I HATE seeing the word "just" associated with infidelity. With the scope of my betrayals, it would be really easy for me to dismiss or diminish betrayal that may seem "less than" what I have experienced. It would be easy for me to read people’s stories and judge people for their responses. People read mine and judge me. That’s OK. I’m not them and they are not me. The whole "thought experiment" around "deeper the betrayal, the more personal self-respect one must trade away to stay" is largely you "inserting yourself into other people’s stories". IMO, it is up to each BS to determine how "deep" the betrayal is and what the price to stay is. Most of us have surprised ourselves in that realm.

I tend to approach this site from a perspective of "Learn by Fucking Up". I share a lot of "don’t be me" nuggets. I also share things I have learned they may not be "fuck ups" but pain I have experienced so others can avoid it. Also, things that have worked for me.

A lot of your posts on here seem to be much more "theoretical". "If I were in this position, here is what I would do" or something you observe where you "don’t understand the logic". For me personally, (see what I did there) these add little value. I’m sure they do for you but at times (again for me) you come across as a voyeur here for your own curiosity and amusement rather than someone who has truly been impacted by infidelity.

My whole point in the post was to empathize with where the OP is based on his prior post (the details don’t matter anymore, I’m done here) with using my own examples. Also cautioning him that (based on my own experience), if he shifts to wanting R, those details likely WILL matter to him.

Thanks for the clarification.

I appreciate you explaining your perspective. While our ways of processing betrayal differ, I can see that for you, the "Rubicon" is a binary threshold: once the seal of monogamy is broken, the quantity of acts doesn't change the fundamental state of the marriage being over.

However, to address the logic of proportionality: does this hold across other violations? If we use theft as an analogy, there is a literal, quantifiable difference between losing $10 and $1,000. While both are "theft," the impact on one's life and the ability to recover is vastly different. I struggle to see how the volume of betrayal doesn't scale the level of damage, even if the "entry-point" to ending the relationship is the same. Ultimately that's the point of this forum though, different perspectives.

The idea of the thought experiment was to bring common sense into the equation. Surely you concede that a lot of people would look at someone who wants to reconcile with a serial cheater who has performed extreme sex acts over a long period of time vs someone who forgave an instance or two as different? It's stands to reason that they would. This then demonstrates that the scale of the betrayal does matter.

A lot of your posts on here seem to be much more "theoretical". "If I were in this position, here is what I would do" or something you observe where you "don’t understand the logic". For me personally, (see what I did there) these add little value. I’m sure they do for you but at times (again for me) you come across as a voyeur here for your own curiosity and amusement rather than someone who has truly been impacted by infidelity.

I’m sorry it comes across that way; if you knew my history, you’d know I’m certainly not here for "amusement."

My goal is to offer a perspective rooted in objective logic because, as a person who processes the world that way, I found that type of voice missing when I needed it. Infidelity is an emotional minefield, and sometimes "theoretical" frameworks help people detach from the pain long enough to make a rational decision. I share this alternative voice for those who find "cold logic" more grounding than emotional empathy. I recognize it doesn't resonate with everyone, but for some, it’s the only thing that makes sense in the chaos.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:41 AM, Saturday, March 21st]

Ima

I too share a lot of don’t be me experience.

This is why I am no longer married. The behavior had to be disclosed fully AND it had to stop.

"BUT if we were going to reconcile, I HAD to know the full scope and truth. Firstly, I had to know what I was forgiving. Secondly, there could be no more secrets/lies between us. That had been the state of the "marriage" for 38 years. THAT couldn’t continue."

Doble- at this point, she’s admitted to so much sexual activity in her (now 3 1/2 year) affair that there’s no lower to go. I’ve given up trying to find out if there was more there or other guys, so it’s not that.

I’m trying to figure out if it is possible to ever stop this from destroying a future together. In the day or two distance from hearing the latest bombshell, I haven’t changed my belief that staying with her would eliminate my own self-respect. I am/was really committed to her and remain so but her complete lack of any regard for me, and to a lesser extent our children, for such a long time, through so many good times and bad, with so many chances to end it and clear the air with me, has made me realize she never wanted this on some level.

Despite her saying that she wants to remain married, I’m not really feeling that to be the truth. She just wants to remain comfortable. She can find that elsewhere.

Understood and Im truly sorry.

As sisoon said:

BSes all have to find our own path from d-day to healing and to resolving the relationship with the WS. There is no simple or painless way out. One can only take a step, evaluate the results, adjust as appropriate, repeat that process until one is healed.

No truer words have been posted.

Only the faithful spouse knows when the level betrayal, deceit, and, just as importantly, remorselessness reaches critical mass in their soul. The point at which the scales tip and the decision is made to formally end that which has been damaged beyond repair by the marital traitor. The fact that you are in therapy will stand you in good stead as you work through this.

For what its worth, I believe that you are thinking clearly and are coming to a place of resolution. IMO proceeding to divorce is very understandable as there is a whole lot of poison in the well of your marital history. At some point it becomes so toxic that ending things is an act of self preservation.

Ending the marriage is no panacea but it can act as a line of demarcation. The beginning of the end of abject suffering and the opportunity to shape a new beginning. It too is a process and I can tell you that for me, it proved to be the best way forward after years of unilateral and exhausting effort on my part to "make things work".

I wish you well sir and that your healing journey continues.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 2:04 PM, Saturday, March 21st]

I appreciate you explaining your perspective. While our ways of processing betrayal differ, I can see that for you, the "Rubicon" is a binary threshold: once the seal of monogamy is broken, the quantity of acts doesn't change the fundamental state of the marriage being over.

However, to address the logic of proportionality: does this hold across other violations? If we use theft as an analogy, there is a literal, quantifiable difference between losing $10 and $1,000. While both are "theft," the impact on one's life and the ability to recover is vastly different. I struggle to see how the volume of betrayal doesn't scale the level of damage, even if the "entry-point" to ending the relationship is the same.

I will say "it depends". On the person, on the situation, etc. Using your example, there is little to no difference for me personally between losing $10 and $1000. Neither one has any sort of impact on my life, my ability to pay what few bills I have, etc. But for SOME people the difference is immense. Also, you say "lost" but then say "both are theft". OK, let’s say I was robbed. Whether someone broke into my house or I was mugged on the street, the VIOLATION I have experienced is my main concern NOT how much money was taken. Was I injured, how did this happen, will it happen again, how can I prevent it? What if I find out someone I trusted and loved is the perp? THAT changes the impact to me. I view infidelity much the same way. The money lost is way down the list.

Historically, I looked at "infidelity" as requiring sex. I actually caught my wife in her second affair when it was still in EA stage. It went underground and turned physical. Did that make the affair "worse"? It’s all the same affair. The part that bothers me the most is that when I caught her she promised to go NC. She didn’t. So whether it remained an EA, was kissing and fondling, oral or full sex isn’t as important to me. She lied to me and continued to betray me. THAT is what is important.

I understand the search for logic. IMO there is nowhere logic applies less than infidelity. It’s all incredibly stupid. From the decision and act themselves to the way people twist themselves in knots to justify doing it or staying with someone who did. You seem to want to visualize betrayal on some sort of chart with a steady curve where "volume of betrayal" equates to a corresponding "level of damage". Maybe visualize at some point (and this is different for everyone) it just flattens out and becomes more "noise". Once you realize your partner is capable of huge levels of betrayal, it isn’t surprising (or that impactful, at least for me) that they actually did them.

I’ll leave you with a nerd analogy. In Star Trek you have the primary trio of Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Decisive action, pure logic and emotional intelligence /caring being the primary traits. There are many stories where Spock’s logic is not the best approach and causes him to fail. Watch the TOS episode "The Galileo 7".

"Surely you concede that a lot of people would look at someone who wants to reconcile with a serial cheater who has performed extreme sex acts over a long period of time vs someone who forgave an instance or two as different?"

I understand the point DRSOOLERS was trying to make here, but in the larger context who cares what other people think of our decisions for our own life. The only person any of us need to satisfy is ourselves. You don’t live your life to please others. Only the person in the mirror. We all follow our own path, knowing our own situations. Is maintaining self-respect important in making life changing decisions. Absolutely. Is the only way to do that by filing for D after infidelity. Not for every one. Read enough stories on this site and you will see great examples. This site is great because of the variety of opinions and advice offered in good faith from a variety of perspectives. But in the end you have to follow your own drummer, and who gives a shit what others think. Just my two cents.

Cheers for that. I’m actually really glad this chat has turned a bit more cordial. It’s much better than butting heads.

I’ll happily take the Star Trek comparison. You’re spot on: Spock’s pure logic isn’t always the best or only way to go, and in plenty of episodes, McCoy’s heart is what actually saves the day. I reckon these forums (quite rightly) spend a lot of time on the McCoy side of things, the raw trauma and the emotional fallout. I suppose I’m just here to be the Spock because that specific frequency is often missing. It's what I needed when I went through this. I'm posting on the presumption I surely can't be the only person who views the world through this lens. For some people drowning in the noise you mentioned, a bit of cold logic is the only life raft that feels solid enough to grab onto.

To your point on violation versus the actual money: I totally get it. Let’s bin the dollar amounts then. Even if we focus strictly on the violation, the weight of it still changes based on the context. Being mugged by a randomer on the street is a violation, but being robbed in your own bed while you’re asleep by someone you actually trusted is a completely different league of "gutted."

Infidelity is surely the same. It’s never just one flat thing. It scales. One person versus a hundred, a total stranger versus your best mate, a single kiss versus years of the most extreme acts you can imagine. While the Rubicon is crossed in every case, I’d argue the depth of the violation, and the weight of the baggage you have to carry afterwards, inevitably scales with those factors.

For me, this isn’t just theoretical. My own betrayal involved my best friend at the time, and that made it infinitely worse than if it had been a stranger. It was a double weight of betrayal by both my partner and my mate. It fractured my entire friend group and led to false accusations being made to justify the whole mess. All of those layers added to the "volume" and made the recovery far more difficult. FYI I would have left her either way but the context made recovery harder. If it had been a one off with a stranger, the level of recovery required would be on an entirely different level compared to a multi year spree with dozens of people. That is something I’m not sure I’d ever recover from, not fully anyway.

Look, we aren’t all the same and people have different views. I simply don’t relate to yours and you may not to mine. I agree that at a certain point the curve probably flattens out into noise because you’ve already realised what they’re capable of. But until it hits that ceiling, the specifics definitely change how heavy the burden feels. Or at least they do to me

Anyway, I appreciate the proper dialogue. Having different perspectives is exactly what makes these places useful, even if we’re looking at the same mess through different lenses

@fareast I entirely agreed. Ignore the noise and do what's best for you irrespective of what others think. That idea was merely to demonstrate that the context does change things.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:00 PM, Saturday, March 21st]

The simple answer to the question of why or how someone could engage in this type of selfish destructive behavior is because they wanted to.

My ex-wife of 20 years was by all accounts a loyal faithful God-fearing Christian who looked like the perfect wife to everyone who knew her, including me. How could she lie and cheat and run around behind my back arranging illicit sexual trysts and then come home and maintain a normal household routine with me?

After years of considering every option and theory and reason and excuse, the answer is simply because she wanted to.

I agree with Ligtning Crashes - ultimately the reason is always the same, because they want to - and they think they can get away with it.....because we trust them. It they knew we didn't trust them, they might not attempt it because it might be too risky. Although some people love risk.

Some people may view this as a particular event or chain of events that are caused for whatever "reasons". I view it as a character flaw - one that may or may not be correctable. For me ultimately it comes down to "how well do I really KNOW this person and how much can I predict his behavior". That's a big part of the cheating for me, it changes how I view my spouse, what I know...or don't know....about him. My spouse has an ex girlfriend he's stayed in touch with and has what I consider an EA with and he has all these years. I found this out about the same time I found out about the online dating - over 10 years ago now. As far as I know the online dating stopped, I rarely check because I don't really care any more but the EA continues. Maybe it's not as much romantic now as just a deep friendship that he tries to hide from me, which means...to his mind there's something to hide, but I let him know I know. I don't view him with any romantic feeling any more and haven't for years, I assume if I died he'd probably take up with her. Or he probably should, lol. I don't really care what he does, as long as he just doesn't leave me flat economically. But a few weeks ago I asked him about the new slippers he has, a very expensive pair. I knew what the answer was because I had read the text messages. So he lied to me about where they came from, etc, and what was remarkable was how SMOOTHLY he lied without turning a hair, without hesitation. He could be a politician. So I know that this IS part of his personality, something I never would have anticipated 10 years ago when I found out about his online bullshit. So this IS a basic part of his personality, this kind of dishonesty, and he's very good at it. It depends on whether there's a circumstance that arises where this needs to come out, to be used. This IS a basic part of his personality, which I had not realized before his onlne cheating. Now I know, permanently, that I can't fully trust him, and that's part of my equation in dealing with him.

First off LFH, I apologize for my part in totally thread jacking your thread. As I said, my response was to show empathy and understanding for your position based on my own experiences and caution you that if your shift focuses back to possible R, those details and getting the full truth likely WILL matter.

@Dr. Soolers, I’m not trying to "butt heads" with you denigrate you or any of those things. My feedback was based on MY perspective and was intended as that. Feedback. You can accept it or dismiss it or do with it what you will. As I said, it is how I perceive your posts not how you intend them to be. Frankly, I usually cruise past them and the associated thread jacks and disruption of threads. I only answered because you "@ me" basically asking if I truly believe my own life experiences and then challenge it with theoretical scenarios. You also have a tendency to use phrases like "surely you can agree…." That are offputting and come across (to me) as dismissive of positions contrary to your own views. In every response to me in this thread, you acknowledge understanding my position but then have a "yeah but…" type of response and throw in another "surely you can agree…" and throw in another scenario that has nothing to do with the unique position I stated that you pasted and questioned me about. Others have provided you feedback in the past that you "seek only to be understood, but not to understand". I can relate to that view.

I will try one last time to explain the unique scenario I was in and why additional info didn’t matter. Then I am dipping out of this t/j and only responding to the OP if/when he comes back and I can offer assistance.

OP stated:

at this point, she’s admitted to so much sexual activity in her (now 3 1/2 year) affair that there’s no lower to go. I’ve given up trying to find out if there was more there or other guys, so it’s not that

I was at a point where pulling information out of my wife was like pulling teeth. Discussions ended up with her crying hysterically on the floor. I had to use every communication tool I had ever learned to try to get information out of her. I had come to a point where I had information that she was a serial cheater, had affairs with multiple men over several years that included physical acts all the way to intercourse. I had decided the betrayal was too long, with too many APs with too many sex acts. I couldn’t continue (much like OP has expressed). There were more APs, longer timeframes and more sex out there. But at that point it didn’t matter to me. 3, 7, 11 or more didn’t change the equation for me. Longer timeframes didn’t change the equation. More sex didn’t change the equation. Whatever the combination of numbers were, didn’t change the fact she is a "serial cheater that had multiple affairs over many years". Why pursue finding it all out if we weren’t going to reconcile? Your own words:

I’d argue the depth of the violation, and the weight of the baggage you have to carry afterwards, inevitably scales with those factors.

Not only would seeking out higher numbers not "do me any good", as you have pointed out, it would likely be detrimental for me. Why would I pursue more pain and make healing harder if I am not reconciling? That’s highly illogical.

I will agree that "1 infraction vs 100" or "one kiss vs. multiple acts of depraved sex" or "my best friend vs random strangers" makes a difference. None of those apply to me and my lived experience. That’s not the example I gave or what OP is living. It’s more in the realm of "does 7 or 11 APs make a difference"? Does 15 or 20 acts of intercourse make a difference? If the relationship is over either way, I say "no". At least for me.

You can play "what if" giving theoretical examples that don’t relate to that specific scenario all day. It will not change my lived experience.

IMO, the stay/go decision is not logical. It's emotional, and emotional logic does not follow the rules of scientifi method. For example:

I haven’t changed my belief that staying with her would eliminate my own self-respect.

OK. That's that, then.

OTOH, it's unwise to let someone else control your self-respect. In fact, you and only you are in charge of your self-respect, even though it's often difficult to keep that in mind.

I am/was really committed to her and remain so but her complete lack of any regard for me, and to a lesser extent our children, for such a long time, through so many good times and bad, with so many chances to end it and clear the air with me, has made me realize she never wanted this on some level.

My W cheated in part because she didn't feel lovable or loving. She cheated out of self-hate and despair. Her A was due to her own issues. I was collateral damage.

So not having regard for me was not a potential cause for D for me. Your W may be similar. What if she is?

You can D or R whether she did or didn't respect you during her A. What matters is whether or not she will respect you for the rest of her life - I wouldn't R unless I thought my WS would come to respect me pretty quickly.

Despite her saying that she wants to remain married, I’m not really feeling that to be the truth.

Now THAT is critically important. If you think she just wants comfort out of staying M to you, you have a terrific reason for D and against R. Of course, you might be misreading her, right, and what if you are?

Your belief she doesn't want to be M to you may actually be your signal to yourself that you don't want to be M to her.

IOW, you can make any action by your WS or yourself as a logical reason for D and/or R.

Here's my point:

After d-day, the BS (and WS, too) make their own rules about what to do with the relationship and how to choose. You make rules for yourself here.

I know choosing to stay or go is difficult. It's probably one of the most difficult decisions a person has to make.

The decision isn't about what your W did in the past. Choosing what to do with your M is about the future. Logic doesn't take you very far into the future - there are too many inter-dependent variables to be able to predict much.

And yet, you have to predict what your life will be if you D ... or R. Since you know yourself better than anyone else does, you've got the power, bro.

There may be multiple good answers for you. Just don't depend on someone else - or even someone in your head - to make the decision for you.

*****

WRT proportionality:

At first I speculated about how I'd be responding if my W's A had been an ONS, or multiple years, or if she had more than one ap, or if the ap had been male, or if it were 'just' an EA. In the end, I decided all of the above would have been devastating. If she had kissed someone else in a way similar to the way we kissed, I'd have been devastated. If she had shared a secret between us with a friend, I might be devastated. You know why I haven't cheated? It's because I know the consequences would be devastating, and I knew that when I was 16.

I would argue that proportionality does not apply to relationships and actions that are supposed to be loving. Proportionality has at best limited utility when dealing with human responses to events, especially to traumatic events.

I know a long term A is quantitatively worse than a(n) ONS, but affairs have dimensions other than and often more important than quantitative.

*****

My W cheated in part because she didn't feel lovable or loving. I've always known I chose R for healthy and unhealthy reasons. This is one of the unhealthy ones. I just said that I stayed because I let her hook me into the Rescuer role in a Drama Triangle. Wow. I never saw that as clearly as I do right now. Ah, well. Live and learn. I'll think about this, but I doubt it will make me change my mind about choosing R.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:50 PM, Saturday, March 21st]