SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am going to be honest here, and the truth is not always pretty. Please, if you are going to respond to this post, don't do it from a place of outrage or hurt. I am asking anyone who replies to do so from a place of kindness and support, otherwise keep it moving.

My marriage sucks right now. I have grown to be incredible suspicious that the person I felt the safest with has become abusive, whether he consciously recognizes he's doing it or not. It didn't used to be like that. It seems like something has changed, but he won't clue me into what's going on. It feels so much like he's pushing me away the same way I was pushing him away, that I have actually asked him if there was someone else, and if that's the case could he please just tell me so I know what changed and we could work through it, instead of me being stuck here trying to figure it out. Honestly, that would feel like relief at this point. He laughed in my face at the question. That didn't dispel the suspicion at all.

It's gotten to the point where I feel the need to record our interactions because he "remembers" events so differently from the way I do, and it's always conveniently in his favor. I recorded our conversation today about these feelings, and even within that one, I noticed multiple employed manipulation tactics. It was genuinely difficult for me to listen to it back, because I was so focused on repair during the conversation that I didn't even catch them the first time. It makes me want to hold my inner child and comfort her, and tell her that I'm not going to let this happen to us again. I have a plan going forward to try to navigate out of it. I am praying the ultimate solution isn't separation or divorce, because I do love him and want to be with him. I just can't continue abiding by the way he's treating me right now. I can't understand why this is even happening.

But I'm here right now because I sense that the remorse I hold for committing infidelity seems to be waning, and that scares me too. I think I've gone from seeing my Bh as a perfect innocent angel whom I've mortally wounded atop his gleaming pedestal, to a potential mutual abuser that I've hurt down here in the dust with me. I don't find myself making excuses for the infidelity, because nobody deserves that... I just feel less shame for what I've done. A bit more empathy for myself at the time, and a little less for my BH. I know that sounds awful and regressive.

I'm struggling with the idea that he could hurt me in the ways that he has been hurting me, while I'm also supposed to be bending over backwards to comfort him, reduce his anxiety, and aid his healing in whatever way possible. Especially right now, when I'm going out of town for work for a week and staying alone in a hotel room. I have gotten to the point where I feel more confident about my ability to remain faithful-- though I am still keeping in place strict guidelines to keep us safe at all times, particularly when our relationship is on the rocks. But I know he's not feeling good about it. The idea of telling him where I'm going and what I'm doing at all times, and having to answer his every text or phone call even though I'm exhausted and just want to zone all the way out and enjoy my rare alone time, and sound happy about it... is inducing disgust in me, when previously I would have been excited to have the opportunity to be supportive and prove to him that I can be better. And I feel resentment growing in me as I bust my ass to get the house clean and comfortable for him to enjoy while I'm away working. I also feel guilt for having these feelings.

I do want to continue to work on being better, but more for myself right now. Some deep dark part of me wants to tell him to shove his pain where the sun doesn't shine, because I'm way out of spoons to deal with it. I have to keep that part caged and carefully contained for the sake of the long run.

I don't really know what the point of this post is. Maybe just to get the feelings out, or see if anyone has gone through something similar.

It’s very difficult for someone outside of the situation and who only knows what you say here to get the full picture of what is actually happening.

So, my husband did cheat on me during reconciliation. I did not suspect it, nor did I feel abused or any of those things. But upon discovery, I do not ever remember feeling my remorse waning. I still felt some level of accountability because I do not believe he would have done that had I not done it first.

Now, I don’t blame myself for his affair. He made a lot of decisions and in many ways acted out much worse than I did. But I also recognized that when people experience deep trauma that some percentage of those people will be driven to some sort of unhealthy coping mechanisms.

To me it meant that he had healing to do, and the question was did he intend to do that or were we going to have to part ways?

I will also say it didn’t relieve my guilt, make me feel justified, or any of those things. But I was further out from you if I am to go by your join date. I was three years out when I found out about the affair. I had more time to work on myself and so it’s hard to say what would have happened if I had been 6-7 months out.

My guilt, shame and even remorse wasn’t totally based on him. It was based on who it is I want to be, how I want to treat people, and my responsibility to the situation. I think the healthiest thing is to be able to hold that AND still have compassion for myself in the ways that I landed where I was. Without being able to hold both, I don’t think change is possible. It takes accepting you fully understand the impact, and you also can see yourself as a human capable of change and self understanding.

I could read your post two ways:

Scenario 1-

Six months out is early. It’s about the time the bs goes into the anger stage of grief. Mental and emotional exhaustion is going on in both people. It’s a very difficult stage. So, it could be you haven’t developed enough to deal with the fallout from what you did - that’s not a condemnation —at six months I had barely reached remorse. It could simply be his behavior is simply a an unhealed person who doesn’t know what to do with the trauma and you are projecting his behavior to be like yours and are falsely accusing him of cheating because you can’t relate to his reaction to this trauma. I have talked to too many ws not to consider this as a possible option. We tend to have very convoluted coping mechanisms and distorted thinking.

OR

Scenario 2: He is abusive, he is cheating, and you can’t connect with your empathy because of the anger you feel.

Anyway, if it’s the second thing, which I have to believe that to be as much of a possibility as anything else, you do not deserve an abusive relationship.

It’s not all that uncommon for two toxic people or two people who lack coping or whatever to marry each other. And if one starts to work in the healing the whole paradigm starts to self destruct.

You are the only person who can identify what is happening. I know as someone who can be very avoidant, and due to the way I was raised, I have serious issues dealing with other people’s anger. I remember feeling like it was never going to end and that distance when I was so reliant on the validation of others was absolutely scathing. I didn’t think we would make it because I couldn’t deal with it at all.

I am not dismissing that it’s the way you are describing. But I also think many ws who come here do not always understand the effects trauma has on people. Betrayal can cause PTSD in people.

I went with my husbands baseline though, he was a really good man, father, husband, friend before my cheating. When he hit the anger phase I knew that it was him reacting. And giving him transparency was sometimes annoying, but accepting it as what he needed to feel safe seemed like the least I could do.

I am really trying to temper this, but knowing your last post was about how you haven’t been a great partner lately, it seems like him being in an anger phase and not getting what he needs from you may be what’s creating the distance. Personally, if you want to know the best thing you can do is focus on who you need to be and be consistent and reliable, honor your angreements and see if it starts to shift the dynamic.

There are books about trauma and learning about that can help you understand trauma-driven behaviors.

Nonetheless, I do commend you for two very honest posts in a row, where you are describing things you are not proud of. It takes guts to do that here.

This isn’t easy, trying to work towards recovery and reconciliation is hard shit to navigate. I don’t know what I am looking at here but hopefully I covered the bases.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:39 AM, Wednesday, May 13th]

Hi, I think we all have bad days, good days, decent weeks and really bad weeks.
When was your DDay? Did your BS have this behaviour (manipulative) before the A?

I find helpful to separate who my BS was before the A (with all his positives and negatives) and who is now after the trauma of betrayal. It can be difficult in the heat of the moment, but when I focus on this, I can empathise more easily with him. I clearly see that if it wasn't for my behaviour, things (and him) would not be like this. We had some M issues, but the hell we are navigating now is entirely of my own doing.

I feel your exhaustion and tiredness. After all, we are all humans and we all need a break from hardship and pain. And just because we (deeply) wronged our partners, it doesnt mean that we are immune to pain and wreck (even though we know we have to endure it). And having no-one to comfort you is tough as well.

If you feel his attitude is turning manipulative, try to talk to him. Have you tried discussing together some boundaries? That could work for both of you (and that would support yours and his wellbeing). It's not easy to keep them in place when emotions run high. But it's a start.

Also agreeing on times where you can both decompress might help (e.g. 1h each evening when you either do something neutral and pleasant together, or 1h where you discuss only on thigs that worked well)

There is no stop sign so I am going to come at this from the BS perspective, please don't take this as an attack but rather a constructive criticism.

I’m going to try to say this as gently and respectfully as I can, because I don’t think you’re evil, and I do think your feelings are real. But I also think there’s a possibility you are viewing your marriage right now through the same lens that allowed the affair in the first place.

What I mean by that is this-

You seem to be placing enormous emotional weight on your own pain, exhaustion, resentment, confusion, and unmet needs while gradually losing sight of the scale of trauma your husband is likely still living in every single day.

That doesn’t mean your feelings are invalid.
It does not mean betrayal gives someone a license to become abusive.
And if he truly is emotionally or psychologically abusing you, you absolutely should not stay simply because you cheated first.

But I think before arriving at that conclusion, you need to ask yourself a brutally honest question, "Am I being abused, or am I deeply uncomfortable living in the aftermath of the pain I caused?"

Because those are not automatically the same thing.

You mention recording conversations because he remembers events differently than you do. That can absolutely be a sign of manipulation, but in my case my WW did this in her own mind as some way of justifying the affairs I believe. Try and separate what is reality and fiction. It can also be the reality of two traumatized people experiencing the same interaction through completely different nervous systems. Betrayed spouses often become hypervigilant, emotionally dysregulated, reactive, suspicious, withdrawn, obsessive, inconsistent, or difficult to communicate with after discovery. That does not automatically make them abusive. Sometimes it means they are psychologically shattered and trying to survive something they never emotionally consented to experiencing.

This is my opinion so take it with a grain of salt but recording the conversations is likely breeding even deeper mistrust with him, and may appear that every conversation is more like a battle to be won rather than an issue to work through.

And I say that because several parts of your post read less like accountability and more like the beginning of reframing yourself as the primary victim of the relationship.

Again, I mean that respectfully.

You describe him once as a "perfect innocent angel atop a pedestal" and now as a "mutual abuser down in the dust." But most marriages are neither of those things. Almost no long-term relationship is perfect. Most contain disconnection, resentment, communication failures, loneliness, immaturity, unmet needs, and periods where both people fail each other emotionally. That is true in probably the majority of marriages that have ever existed.

But those imperfections are not unique to your marriage.
They also are not what caused the affair.

The danger here is that you may be unconsciously starting to use the normal imperfections of a human relationship to emotionally rebalance the moral scales in your own mind.

And that is a very slippery slope.

Because once the betrayed spouse becomes "also flawed," or "also hurtful," or "also emotionally damaging," it can start feeling easier to carry less shame about the betrayal itself. You even admit this directly when you say your remorse feels like it is waning because you now have "more empathy" for yourself and less for him.

That should concern you deeply.

Not because you deserve endless self-hatred forever. You don’t. Shame alone helps nobody long term. But because true remorse does not disappear simply because the betrayed partner later handles their pain imperfectly.

Your husband may genuinely be acting unfairly at times.
He may be reactive.
He may be bitter.
He may be emotionally flooded.
He may even be treating you in ways that are unhealthy.

But you are also talking about a man who allowed the person who traumatized him back into his life. That is not a small thing. That is an extraordinary act of vulnerability whether you currently feel grateful for it or not.

And honestly, parts of your post sound less like someone protecting reconciliation and more like someone becoming resentful that reconciliation still requires labor from them.

The disgust at transparency.
The resentment over reassuring him while away.
The exhaustion at having to answer texts.
The desire to "zone out" from his pain.
The part of you wanting to tell him to "shove his pain where the sun doesn’t shine." (The very pain you created and curated)

Those feelings may be understandable in moments of burnout to you, but they should not be normalized into a worldview where his ongoing trauma becomes framed primarily as an inconvenience to your healing journey.

Because the truth is, he did not ask for this emotional reality. You both now live in it because of choices you made.

And I think you need to be careful that you are not interpreting his pain itself as abuse simply because it is persistent, uncomfortable, emotionally demanding, and preventing you from emotionally moving on at the pace you want to.

To be crystal clear:
If he is truly manipulating, degrading, threatening, controlling, gaslighting, or emotionally harming you in an ongoing way, then yes, leave. Infidelity does not obligate you to tolerate abuse forever.

But if what’s actually happening is that he is broken, terrified, hypervigilant, emotionally inconsistent, and struggling to reconcile the person he loved with the person who betrayed him… then that is a very different conversation.

One final thing I’ll say gently:

Several of your recent posts seem intensely centered around your emotional experience, your exhaustion, your discomfort, your resentment, your healing, your shame reduction, your need for safety, your inner child, your disgust, your overwhelm. There is very little space in them where your husband exists as a full human being outside the context of how his pain affects you.

That mindset may be worth examining carefully, because self-centered emotional reasoning is often part of what enables affairs to happen in the first place. Ask yourself why you wanted the gift of R, and do it honestly. Not all relationships are going to make it nor should all.

Again, not saying you are malicious.
Not saying your feelings aren’t real.
Just saying I think you may be standing at a crossroads between deeper accountability and deeper self-justification.

And those roads lead to very different outcomes. Take my opinion for what it is worth as I too am still in the deep chasm of pain and despair, and I am sure I too do not come across extraordinarily helpful or understanding at times.

I don't know you BH's personality, but it's my natural inclination to detach physically and mentally from a person when they have hurt me. In fact, I warned my WS at the beginning of everything that if I saw signs that he was giving up on the marriage emotionally and physically, I would definitely give up too and not fight it. It's an emotional protection device probably.

It's all painful, and there were times I did want to give up due to the pain, even years out. I can empathize that it's also painful for the WS, but my reasoning for not putting in more effort was that I was going to try to fix what I didn't break. My WS kept showing up though. I'm 10 yrs out, and it wouldn't be my first thought to detach if he seems distant or frustrated.

You have said in a few of your posts that you are frustrated and tired of dealing with his pain and emotions and needs. Then you seem to cycle back around to worrying that he's withdrawing and not coming to you with all of that. Maybe you are both in a self-enforcing loop. You pull back. (Or he does. It doesn't matter who starts.) He/you sees that and pulls back. You/he see that pulling back and pull back more. Then one of you gets scared of breaking up and starts putting in effort and pulling forward again. The cycle continues.

Oh, and I hope you are not recording your conversations without his knowledge. That would definitely be a "straw that broke the camel's back" moment for me in a marriage.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 10:46 PM, Wednesday, May 13th]

We are approaching the anti-versary of D Day. I know that there is typically a lot of tension around this time, but the increasly frequent and intense arguments started a few months ago. We have been through stages of inquisition, hysterical bonding, depression with mutual support as we dealt with the impact and implications, his anger phase, break throughs in vulnerability and deeper understanding, and most recently, a period where he seemed to shut down every time I thought he might be triggered and asked if he wanted to talk about it. In my head, I have been calling it "the burial" phase, because seems to just want to bury the whole thing and avoid revisiting it, even though I know he isn't done processing the trauma...

I don't know if he has only been employing the abusive/manipulation tactics the past few months, or if it has been going on since the beginning of our relationship and I just didn't realize. I can recall a couple instances where I felt... like a kind of whiplash or deception, with him insisting that he had told me things that were completely contrary to my understanding of the situation, which I definitely do not have memory of him saying to me. And he has always been a very difficult person to argue with... My recollection of the past may be through rose-colored glasses, but I thought that we were really good at working through conflicts and communicating our feelings before my infidelity came to light. Now I'm wondering if he was just good at taking my need for comfort in those moments as an in to swoop in and disarm my negative feelings, and then the issues at hand just got swept under the rug without actually being dealt with at all.

I remember in the initial inquisition stage, he asked my "why?" repeatedly. And in the beginning, of course, it was the shallow reason that we were having issues, and I felt like AP was giving me what I was needing at the time and missing from my BH. And I'm definitely not saying this is any excuse for doing what I did, but he asked me why I never told him about these issues. But I swore I did, on multiple occasions, and I had even written about it online when seeking advice on my situation online while the affair was ongoing. I remember pulling up the posts. And we talked about his perception of such attempts, and it was decided that these attempts were weak and short lived... But what if they weren't? What if he just manipulated me into believing they were to deflect from an unwillingness to invest effort into changing? I mean, he literally said, in the recorded conversation regarding feeling the need to implement recording devices, "These are my feelings. I don't know how to make them more clear. I don't care to discuss why they're my feelings. I don't know why. I'm not interested in exploring why. What difference does that make anyway??" And it really made a big difference to me, because I was trying to see his point of view and make sure he felt heard and that we felt good about this decision, like we were making it together, so he didn't accuse me of "steamroling" him into it later. I feel like that's a defensive mechanism and evidence of him not really wanting to introspect or change presently... Could he have felt that way when I was trying to bring up our issues before? I think that's why I'm leaning towards greater empathy for myself at the time, and less for him, even though I still certainly regret the infidelity.

I don't know if he is actually cheating or not. Something just feels inexplicably different, and cheating was what was I was doing when he kept saying something felt different. That's why I'm drawing that parallel. I don't care much what the reason is, I just want to know what it is so I can maybe do something about it. I hate feeling clueless, powerless, excluded, and shut out... I guess that's how he felt during my affair.

I just need to get through this stupid work trip, and then I can get back to working on myself. I feel like if I do that, become a better partner, call him out on any BS I detect-- and can prove!-- then maybe he'll be forced to work on things from his side, and we can start coming back together and fuctioning in a healthy manner again.

I don't know if he has only been employing the abusive/manipulation tactics the past few months, or if it has been going on since the beginning of our relationship and I just didn't realize.

Clearly, you believe he is abusive and manipulative. It doesn't matter how long it's been occurring. The answer is to leave. Do you have anyone to support you with that in real life?

I want definitive proof of everything that's happening, or lack thereof, just to sure. Starting with the recordings. I don't want to go throwing away a whole marriage for imagined reasons. And I can't prove whether he's doing any of it consciously/on purpose or not, but I can evaluate his willingness to stop doing it as we go. If it gets to the point where I can't deny he's being abusive, and he's unwilling to change... Then I will leave. I don't have a ton of support with the way my life is currently set up, but I'll figure it out if I have to. I always have.

So when you're unhappy in a relationship, one basically has three options:
1) Communicate and work it out
2) Leave
3) Cheat

And we all know 3 isn't actually an option for us, here. I don't know if I would survive the heartbreak if I do have to leave. I tried to emotionally detach one day after a particularly bad argument, and I was completely non-functional. I think I would be a suicide risk... But I feel like what he's doing now is removing number 1 with these tactics-- taking away my only recourse for effecting change in the marriage. In the recorded conversation, he says "if it's gotten to the point where you're suspecting me of abuse and you don't trust me, well, to me that says that the relationship is terminal." And it almost came across as a threat to me, as if he would leave me if I couldn't trust him or won't stop with trying to point out the manipulation tactics. But I just agreed with him that the situation is untenable if that's the case... That seemed to give him pause, like he wasn't expecting that.

I have said to him that I am trying to be both my lawyer, for self-protection, and his lawyer, to preserve our marriage. I just want the truth and for us to work out in the end. I pray to God that I'm wrong, or at least strong enough to handle what's next.

GotTheMorbs nothing justifies abuse.

You said however you are not fully sure he is being abusive and in another post you admitted to returning to behavioural pattern that are triggering for your spouse.

Could it be that both of you are undergoing a period of huge pressure, sadness and discomfort? With no time for decompressing or calming your nervous systems? If this is also the case, the first step would be to have a truce or some moments for decompressing.

Try not to go into defensive mode (unless there is abuse obviously) because you may miss cues on what is really going on. Your spouse is likely hurting.

Although on here there is a ton of helpful advice and wisdom, be careful not to approach your spouse with a "ready-made recipe" on how to support him. Try to understand what he (and you) really needs and wants. It could be that now you both need to decompress

Do you have anyone to talk to? If not, keep venting on here. You will be heard. And it will help clear your head.
Stay strong

You clearly know you have to leave if it’s abuse.

However, the response he gave to you saying he was being abusive seems like a rational response to me rather than a threat. If my husband said that to me, I would say the same thing.

What I am about to suggest is only in the case he is not abusing you. In navigating a true reconciliation, noone should be acting in terms of a lawyer. I find this polarizes the relationship and he sounds more like he is on the defensive here than the offensive but agin I know I am working with very limited information.

I would use phrases like this:

"I am sorry that I have not been the best partner for you lately. I know I have reverted to using old coping mechanisms, I am working on that in therapy, I need to replace those choices with healthier ones. I recognize that you have pulled away. Are these two things correlated I would very much like to make this more us against the problem."

The only reason I say any of this is I buy into the idea you all are playing into cycles of self protection because that is so normal in these situations. If he is not cheating or cognizant of trying to be abusive, then he really is struggling with your reaction to him and the only way to solve that is to make it you two against the problem.

Again, I am not trying to deny the reality of your situation but from what you are describing he just sounds exhausted, you both do, and I think it’s entirely possible this is a communication issue. Some of the things you are saying is putting him on the defense and the response he is giving seems rational to me.

Perhaps if you have other examples we could help you evaluate what the situation is more clearly. So far what you are describing sounds like a normal reaction to what is being said to him.

I could definitely see it being a cycle of I'm stressed -> I engage in triggering coping mechanisms -> he gets triggered/pulls away -> we have conflict -> he engages in defensiveness and manipulation tactics to maybe regain a sense of control in the situation ? -> I get more stressed out and pull away -> I engage triggering coping mechanisms...

I don't feel defensive... I think that I'm generally willing to discuss the infidelity, hear him out if he needs me to do something differently or better, and at least attempt to change. I recognize that I haven't been successful with avoiding in engaging in the triggering behaviors recently, and that's probably either the best place to break the cycle, or the second best place. I've been working with my therapist on that. I made a little progress in the past week that I hope to maintain and increase with time. I frequently thank him for his patience.

Some of the other means of inducing objectivity in our conversations have been helpful, and not just for "proving him wrong." For example, we previously argued about how often I do laundry, with him believing it to happen about once a month and me believing that I do it almost daily. So I started putting little tags with the date on the hangers whenever I get a load done. I've noticed that I've really been averaging about one load a week, which is way too infrequently to actually stay on top of it, and that took me down a notch in indignation, while also showing that I do laundry more often than he estimates. I'll happily admit where I'm wrong if it makes things better, but I need him to do the same. I hope the recordings achieve similar objectivity. I need him to understand that when he takes the conversation in a different direction before we finish with the previous topic, or he angrily agrees to something without defending his position on the matter even when prompted and then accuses me of steamrolling him, or he avoids answering a straightforward question because he's anticipating my argument and doesn't let me make the point, or resorts to reductio al absurdum... That's not okay. It hurts me deeply and makes me feel unsafe. And if I can play the recording back to him as a way of providing examples, while maintaining composure and gently requesting change, then maybe he will come to understand and be willing to discuss things more fairly.

I don't want to fight with him like we are lawyers arguing against each other. I'm trying to show him that we're on the same team, but it's not easy with the way that things are going right now. It is very tiring.

It’s very important to you for he and you to agree on when you are right. And for him to understand you.

You don’t feel defensive, but you record him and put tags on when you did the laundry.l to prove a point.

This is the definition of being defensive. You record him so you can prove things to him. That’s defensiveness.

If your husband is abusive, to me that is an intentional behavior. Letting him hear a recording of if he is abusive will only make him double down on his behavior. If he isn’t abusive this is going to make him feel like he is being abused.

I know this comes from your childhood. Your stepfather if I remember correctly.

And maybe your husband isn’t good about seeing you the way you need him to.

That is not a judgment. That is a very pointed statement for consideration towards some work that may help you to do. The behaviors you are describing are somewhat extreme in nature. I think it’s normal to want to be seen and understood, but there should be some balance in which you can let certain things go because you are secure in your own truth.

I can recognized that fragility as I have had to navigate some of that myself personally. I made myself so miserable trying to prove myself, my good intentions, and feeling like I could not stand that I was being perceived in certain ways. It’s not easy work to do, it was caused by my interactions with my mother. Who would question me about everything, snoop through my stuff, shame me for normal things.

I am saying this because I do care about you, and have throughout your time here. Working through this can bring you a level of peace you have never known. I know the mental hell it causes.

What if I asked you this- do you think it’s possible that your husband will love you if you didn’t do laundry as often as you do? I know he is a neat freak and maybe OCD so it makes him cranky, but if you felt loved no matter how much laundry you did or didn’t do, how would that feel?

Because you know what? You are not responsible for his feelings about that. However, it makes you feel like you are not enough. He isn’t responsible for your feelings about that. We decide how we feel/ if you can work toward feeling like enough and just let him be whoever he is it can still change your mental state.

You may decide that being married to someone who is unwilling to heal his OCD issues or make them your problem is not the right thing for you. But until you learn to protect your peace and be confident in your value, this will just repeat itself over and over in every relationship.

Your daughter will one day be a teenager. And what do tens do? They exaggerate the shortcomings of their parents. That’s going to be very triggering. This is just one example.

You do not have to prove yourself. That is some toxic shame talking to you. It talked to me all the time, it infiltrated all my relationships. It told me I was less than.

You are not less than just because you do not do what other people expect.

I am not concerned honestly if you choose not to be married. This behavior is going to make you always hard to live with yourself much less other people. It’s so much pain to keep perceiving yourself by someone else measuring stick. Fighting to change their measurements are futile. You have to be your own measuring stick, and give yourself a lot more grace.

This is why I say you are defensive, everything is litigated whether it matters or not. There are some good books on codependency, I think you will find some great strategies.

And if your husband is abusive, then it will help you break free.

If he was not like this before finding out about your betrayal, then it is safe to assume what he like somehow is a response to an incomplete or improper healing process, assuming he wants to heal the marriage.

Exactly what is happening inside him is hard to say without his expression of internal thoughts. But the emotions may just be too strong for him to hold in a calm and reasonable manner. I do know some things that being betrayed arises within ones soul....

1) Self doubt
2) Feeling like a loser
3) Broken dreams
4) Broken trust
5) Disrespect
6) Unloved
7) Unchosen
8) Discarded
9) Feeling small, very small
10) Feeling unimportant
11) Anger
12) Jealousy
13) Abandonment
14) Cheated
15) Deceived
16) Disregarded
17) Robbed
18) Extreme Loneliness
19) Betrayed by the one in the world you should have been able to count on.

To name a few....

All these things and more are swirling around in his heart and mind. These along with unnamed darkness...can make one utterly bitter and cynical.

May I suggest that you ignore the verbal or emotional discomfort and unkindness for a time....but rather drop into the nightmare that he has been living and bearing since discovery. Look at him as one is hurting so deeply, his normal self simply cannot be a peace and express itself.

He is like someone suffering the replays of torture from the inside out, only to be told by the one who previously tortured him...."why are you not being nicer to me?"

He needs time. Consistency over TIME. One year is rather early on friend.

I applaud you for being honest about what you are feeling and thinking. But now, be just as honestly about how you may need to change yet again to be a women who it can be said of....

Proverbs 31:10-12 KJV
[10] Who can find a virtuous woman? For her price is far above rubies. [11] The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, So that he shall have no need of spoil. [12] She will do him good and not evil All the days of her life.

This can be you. But it will have to be done day by day....🙏

I didn't record our conversation or put dates on the laundry "to prove a point." I did it to preserve my own sanity and my trust in my ability to perceive reality accurately. When you're in the middle of a conflict and the person who's supposed to be your teammate and care about what you're saying starts arguing in a way that just feels so incredibly unfair, and then dismisses you or tells you you're being crazy for trying to point out what's unfair, such that the conversation just keeps going nowhere...that's when being able to listen to what just happened again is useful. It provides clarity. When you know you did laundry at least last week because the dress you wore to church is clean and hung up, but your spouse is insistent you haven't done laundry in a month, that's crazy-making. That's when visible dates come in handy. It's protection from losing my mind. It's not my fault that such measures are necessary.

If he isn’t abusive this is going to make him feel like he is being abused.

If he isn't being abusive, there will be no abusive tactics to point out to him on the recordings.

I won't be able to say, "Here's where you gave an explanation that didn't quite add up for me, and then you accused me of 'interrogating' you when I asked follow up questions" if he's giving honest answers and patiently providing clarification if I don't quite understand his answer.

I won't be able to say "Here's where you interrupted me mid-sentence and exaggerated what I said, and then when I went to explain where you misconstrued what I meant, you started arguing about the clarification, and then we ended up so far off course that I never got to finish making my point" if he's letting me finish speaking, summarizing what I say accurately, and then contributing his counterpoints.

I won't be able to say, "Here's where you threatened to end our relationship because I expressed that I'm not feeling safe with you and you dismissed my reasons for this as me being overly sensitive" if he hears me out, is concerned that I feel that way, and is interested in finding ways to reassure me.

I won't be able to say, "Here's where I came to you with concern over our child's nutrition while I'm away, and you said 'How many times have you gone away? She's never starved before,' and then when I said that worsens my concerns because 'not starving' is far from 'being well nourished, you accused me of making things up to be upset about," if he just listens to my concerns and promises to feed our kid well??? If he's already doing that, then what's so hard about saying "Don't worry. I feed her three nutritious meals a day plus snacks" Why is it "she hasn't starved and you're making things up to be mad about?"

I won't be able to say, "Here's where you said words that mean one thing, but in a tone and accompanying body language that definitely suggests the opposite, and then when I asked you about it because I care about making you feel heard, you repeated yourself and made it seem like nothing you say will ever satisfy me because apparently I'm the unreasonable one and you're exasperated by it," IF HE JUST SAYS WHAT HE MEANS IN A TONE THAT MATCHES.

Pointing these things out to him isn't abuse. It's providing evidence to him that he's doing these things, whether he's conscious of them or not, and asking him to stop. If he tries to spin that as me being abusive or doubles down, we are done done. Because it's NOT OKAY, and I'm fucking exhausted. I'm too exhausted to even empathize with the person I hurt because he's hurting me over and over again, and I don't even know if I'm putting in effort to recover a relationship that might not even be worth saving. I'm not away at work fantasizing about some unrealistic romance with someone else. I just want to be ALONE and rest when I finally have the chance to do so. I'm fresh out of bandwidth.

BS here. Take what you want out of my opinion but if you aren’t able to grasp that you set off a bomb in your husbands life and you are upset that he can’t just operate like it never happened, then I think it says a lot about you.
You don’t deserve to be abused or cheated on regardless of what you have done or even what you are not doing. If he doesn’t feel like you are trying hard enough then he can leave. You don’t feel like you can give him what he needs to heal because you can’t find or maintain the empathy to stay motivated then you can leave as well.
The marriage could be too broken to heal and the injured parties, yourself included, too hurt to work on healing.
I was very angry after my wife’s confession. I had just had back surgery, we all had covid, it was right before Christmas and I was not going to sugar coat how I felt. She would likely tell you she was very hurt about what I said or did around her but I never would hit her or say things to make her look bad in front of our kids.
You are looking at the behavior of someone who hurts and you hurt him, but are upset that he can’t look past the pain you caused to have a conversation with you the way you want it.
I would be pissed off if my wife said I was sounding abusive after she cheated on me. I would be doubly pissed off of my wife told me she was concerned about the kids health while she was away after she risked my health having sex with another man. Perhaps you should think about how his mind is working right now. I doubt much you do or say doesn’t trigger some thought about the affair and any time he doesn’t throw it in your face is a act of sheer willpower.
You don’t deserve to be abused, neither did he. He just didn’t know he was being abused by you until after you told him.
The fact he is still there means he is either unsure of what he wants regarding reconciliation or that he does want to reconcile.
You said in your other post that you loved your husband even though you were actively hurting him by cheating. Now that he is hurting in front of you, you have the chance to prove it but saying you find you are empathizing less and less.
You don’t sound like you have it in you to try to reconcile. You may not be able to fix it even if you put all of your effort into it. You get to decide if he and the marriage is worth the effort. To just give up trying will only reinforce to him that you don’t care. That what I would take away from it.

GotTheMorbs, I'm fairly certain that you don't like me very much. And that's perfectly okay. I know I haven't always been super supportive, that I've pushed and prodded. So, if you rather I cease to engage with you, I'll respect that.

But I want you to know something. Since the day you first arrived here, I've read just about every post you've ever written. I have absolutely no doubt that you have a good heart and I know, despite everything, that you're trying as hard as you can.

So take this for whatever it's worth.

Slow down. Breathe...

I know you want to get through this as quickly as possible. We all do, betrayed and wayward alike. It just doesn't work that way. Reconciliation is a marathon, not a sprint. It takes time. Years. It takes patience, fortitude and resilience, and a shit ton of hard work.

Slow down. Breathe.

You and your hubby are just now closing in on the one year mark. For most of us, the second year is even harder. It's also a good time to take breaks, not necessarily from each, which can help, but with each other.

Maybe start with one night a week in which you both share an evening. Take a walk together. Watch a movie together (no romcoms!). Listen to music. Cook a dinner together. Whatever. Just be.

Notarunnerup,

Where are you getting that I expect him to act like the infidelity never happened?

I expect all of the normal resulting emotional states and phases of recovery that come afterwards. I also expect to be treated with basic decency, to not be made to feel crazy or dismissed, and to have an opportunity to fairly discuss and communicate through issues with my spouse. Right now I am being robbed of that through manipulative tactics.

If that's an unreasonable expectation, then I don't want to be married.

Are you telling me that you started doing this bullshit to your spouse after their infidelity too, and you think it's valid or justified? Because if so, I don't trust a single word you write on the matter, and I think you're plain evil.

Edited to add: Imagine if I was doing the shit that he's doing to me. Imagine if he came to me to express that he's struggling to trust me, and not only do I fail to apologize or take accountability for my actions causing him not to trust me or seek solutions to help him, but I threatened to leave unless he somehow started trusting me again without me having to change anything or help him do that? "It's not my fault you don't trust me! You're just overly sensitive. Fix it or we're done." You'd have no trouble calling that abuse.

Imagine if I was trying to distort or re-write reality so I could hyper-focus on his flaws and not have to do any work on myself, and then got offended and denied it when he pointed it out. Most people here would recommend separation or divorce. If I came back and said "my therapist says I'm right" then you would recommend I find a new therapist.

Imagine if I dismissed his concerns for how I was caring for our child while he isn't home and told him he was just making things up to pick fights.

Imagine if he asked me where I was when I was gone for an hour, and I said I went down to the corner store [that's 5 minutes away], bought a drink [A single drink?], and then came back, and then when he asked me further questions about it, I angrily told him to stop interrogating me? You would assume if I hadn't done anything wrong then there would be no reason for me to get defensive about it. You'd tell me to patiently answer his questions, or actively try to find ways to help him feel better the next time I went, not turn it back around on him and make him feel bad for even asking.

Imagine if he asked me to share my location on my phone or have access to my passwords for transparency purposes, and I crossed my arms, scowled, and replied, "Ugh, fine! If we need to live under Big Brother, like that one episode of Black Mirror for you to feel better, then I guess we have no other choice." And then if he was like, "You don't sound like you're actually willing to do that. Do you want to talk about why?" I was like "I said I would do it! What else do you want me to tell you!? You're going to make me do it either way." You guys would be alll the way up my ass about it.

But because I committed infidelity first, apparently all this is just fine and dandy behavior, right? Because he's hurting, it's fine if he hurts me. You guys see "WS" and assume all sorts of things about me, that I'm expecting him to just "act like nothing happened" and hurry up and get over it because I'm "defensive" and can't deal with his pain and his anger... Like, no. I dealt with it just fine when he was expressing himself like a normal fucking person and didn't feel like someone was standing over me in the bath pushing my head towards the water and acting offended when I ask if he's trying to drown me. But let me just be the never wavering, ever-sympathetic wife while this is actively happening, or else clearly I don't understand the damage I did first !

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 10:59 AM, Friday, May 15th]

Like, if he was say, dealing with depression as a result of the affair, to the point where he's struggling to make our daughter appropriate meals, that's all he needs to say. I could work with that. I'd be like, "I hear you. I'm so sorry I caused you to feel that way. I can pre-make some plates and some freezer meals if that would help, or I could take her to my mother's house for the time I'm gone."

Not, "She hasn't starved and you're making things up to get mad about" while she goes a week without a fruit or vegetable in a caloric deficit in a critical period of growth and development.

"You've haven't been coming to bed recently and that's kind of triggering for me. I think it's contributing to my defensiveness lately. I'm sorry for dismissing your concerns. If you want to take the recordings so that you can point it out to me when it happens, that's okay with me." -> "I'm sorry I haven't been coming to bed recently. I know that's important to you. Here's what going on with me that's causing me to sleep on the couch, and how I plan to ensure I prioritize sleeping next to you. I appreciate you acknowledging the dismissal, and I know you didn't mean it. Thanks for being willing to work through it with me."

IT COULD BE SO EASY

GotTheMorbs, I say this with extreme kindness and empathy. You may be defensive right now, because you are hurting a lot (and it's normal).

Your statements are right in principle, but it's not that straightforward.

If your husband is abusive, you know what you have to do.

But if it's more of a situation of sh*t hitting the fan because of the A, then you have two options:

1- buckle up (and why not, try to put boundaries with tons of gentleness).

2 - leave.

I know it's a lonely road, and it's so painful. There is no room for breathing. But you have to be strong.

A couple of things that stood out from your posts:

"I also expect to be treated with basic decency, to not be made to feel crazy or dismissed, and to have an opportunity to fairly discuss and communicate through issues with my spouse. Right now I am being robbed of that through manipulative tactics.

If that's an unreasonable expectation, then I don't want to be married". I ask you this with kindness (I am a WW too). Was having an A treating your husband with "basic decency"? We are not in a normal situation now. The ship is sinking, the house is on fire, use the analogy that you prefer.

I totally feel with your last message. But you cannot expect your husband to express himself in a way that is convenient for you or how you would express yourself. He could be saying the same about your copying mechanisms.

He hurts and express his discomfort and pain as he can/wants. The underlaying message could be the same.

You wrote "IT COULD BE SO EASY". As waywards, we know that it's not really that easy, don't we? It wasn't easy for us to stop the A happening. This is not to push ourselves down, but to give you another perspective on what it may be going on right now (and hopefully for you to get out from this hellish loop).

This is not to say you have to accept everything. But try to actively listening to what is happening around you. You may feel he is attacking you, but try to stop and think: is he really attacking me or is he hurting so bad that it's his pain talking? Is he really dismissing me or is he asking for help?

I second Hikingout and also Unhinged messages.

It seems like you are both hurting a lot. You both need to decompress. Break the cycle.

Agree with him on some boundaries (e.g. you stop some of the unhelpful behaviour, he stops something else) and set some time (even only 30 mins) for positive conversations.

Again, the above is assuming there is no abuse and it's "just" the aftermath of the A.

If it's abuse, ignore my message.

[This message edited by LonelyGuilty at 11:57 AM, Friday, May 15th]

I was not abusive to my ex wife. I was not nice to her though when i was angry. You talk about how your husband is acting different since your affair and how you wish he would just communicate with you in a decent manner. He has no reason to trust you and while i agree he should be open to tracking just as yourself, you are asking him to experience the same treatment (punishment) you are getting for your affair. He has a right to refuse and so do you.

If you cant trust HIM because of YOUR affair, then leave. YOU broke the vows, the marriage you had is over. You can choose to repair, replace, or retreat. You sound like your are complaining that you set your husband on fire and people should see how hard YOU have it dealing with your husbands needs and how he is being short and not nice to you.

It is unreasonable to expect decency from someone you denied that same courtesy from.

I empathize with you, I really do. I truly feel sorry that you cant seem to grasp what your husband is feeling. I loved my ex wife, I still do but only as the mother of my kids now. To find out your person, the one you chose, would choose another person and destroy the world and future he knew or expected, is unfathomable unless you experience it. Your husband likely has many dark thoughts. I know i did. I thought many times about suicide, finding the guy she cheated with and hurting him. I even had thoughts of hurting her but never acted on any of them.

You blew things up, you can complain about how hard things are to fix. Your husband has it harder, he has to decide to fix things with the person who hurt him and justify to himself everyday why he is taking a chance at this reconciliation. Can you honestly not see how hard it has to be for him to look at you, knowing what you did to him, without recognizing that he is STILL THERE?!

You have a chance at making something new, something you honestly dont deserve, which you should recognize, but he is still there.

[This message edited by Notarunnerup at 12:53 PM, Friday, May 15th]