SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

​@Sisoon

​You manage to misread my posts so frequently it's difficult for me to imagine it's in error.

​To correct the record briefly, I never said validation is a myth. I said the "validation only" narrative is a rewrite of history used by cheaters to hide the hedonistic selfishness of the act, because admitting they actually loved the sex carries too much shame. The physical pleasure is often the vehicle delivering that validation; they aren't separate things. Furthermore, I never said sex for me is only about validation. I explicitly stated sex can be a million things—bonding, release, control, or deep love. I merely noted that during one single period in my past, validation was part of the puzzle, but I still thoroughly enjoyed the physical act. I wouldn't have have sex for validation alone. I wanted to pleasure too.

​Here is an example of your summary skills from across the aisle.

​I read that Sisoon is a prostitute because he got married or something. Don't quite agree with that.

​@Gemmy

​

​Mine snickered, laughed, insulted, and joked about how clueless I was, and unfortunately not just to AP but her friends as well.

​

​I'm deeply sorry to hear that, Gemmy. That is a brutal layer of cruelty to process. How has she explained that specific behavior to you during your recovery?

​This is exactly what disturbs me about the hand-waving generalizations that people throw around on here—especially the idea that all waywards act out of a singular script. It misses the nuance entirely. There is a massive difference between a wayward partner who is completely broken, compartmentalizing, and making horrific choices, and someone who is actively malicious, mocking, and treating their spouse's pain as a joke to their friends. You cannot treat those two psychological profiles as the same thing, and it's why the blanket generalizations on these forums can be so damaging to someone trying to actually understand their own reality.

​How did she explain away her insulting you as seeking validation?

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 7:35 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

Mine snickered, laughed, insulted, and joked about how clueless I was, and unfortunately not just to AP but her friends as well.

I’m sorry, man. Just more and more insult on top of injury. I don’t know if mine mocked me, I’d put the smart money on yes. I know she painted a monstrous picture of me to POSOM and framed it like my kids needed a new father figure. That fuels anger towards her to this day.

Back to what I said in an earlier thread, your writing here is not about the rest of us. It’s for you. We can all go and pound sand if our feelings get riled up. Any benefit to others is frosting on top. Write for yourself, and don’t fucking apologize.

I have only been with one other woman and by no means traded attention for sex. Ww does not see sex as something sacred and special by her own admission, so I believe we are just very different. I would never even entertain a ONS or anything else sexual without profound connection.

Did your WW tell you these feelings and thoughts about how she views sex while you were dating and before marriage?

Or is this just coming out now while she attempts to reconcile with you?

Would it have made a difference to you if you knew her true thoughts about sex before you married her?

I have a hard time believing a man with your views engaged a serious relationship with a woman without exploring her views regarding sex. It is a pretty common conversation early on in a dating relationship. Most of us have a general idea of our partners sexual history. Maybe not an exact number but a general idea. I forget in your postings whether she mislead you regarding her sexual history or her general views on sex. I do know she did not mention that she was in a concurrent relationship with AP1 during your dating and she even invited him to your wedding, correct?

I suspect she has now changed her feelings or has now admitted to lying or concealing her true views in an attempt to minimize or lessen her guilt for her affairs. I have no doubt that she has flung "it's just sex, it didn't mean anything to me!" in your face a number of times since DDay. If that is true then she shouldn't have a problem with you having unlimited girlfriends and sexual partners in the future, right? It is just sex, right? But, she is fighting awfully hard to keep you and her marriage when she seems fundamentally opposed to monogamy.

Please continue with the divorce (have a status update for us?) and then go find a monogamous woman when you're ready.

Stay strong.

post #31:

Snickering? This is your own imagination. It literally sounds delusional.

Oh not this isht again. Seriously? Literally denying the experience of most BH just because it didn't fit her experience or because she thinks it sounds too harsh or something. Whatever.

I am sorry @Gemmy that your WW was in fact snickering. This is NOT AT ALL uncommon in fact it is way more common than not, and you do not need to apologise, AT ALL, for feeling rage. You in fact seem like a pretty compassionate, reasonable, man.

You also need to process this additional level of betrayal on top of what else you are processing. Even if it hurts to read this now.

You had an enormous bomb dropped onto your life. Say your peace man.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:39 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

Let's all put the hackles back down, shall we?

DRSOOLERS, maybe this is a misread/automatic defense on my part, but I think it would help if you included more... "quantifiers?" is that the right word? in your phrasing (for example, most/some/many/often/sometimes/rarely/generally, etc.) I try to do that myself, because absoluteness removes nuance from any discussion.

I don't mean to make this about me, but in my case, I think my BH would have been better able to swallow it if I had just been horny and desired sex with someone else, and behaved selfishly in pursuit of those base desires. We are somewhat ENM, after all, and he seems much less focused on the various one-time instances of physical infidelity than he does my most recent A.

The truth of the matter is that I have been with a lot of other men, most of whom were not satisfying partners, and I consciously recognized that the likelihood of the potential sex being good with my AP-- a man and pretty much a stranger-- was slim. Not to mention how incredibly unlikely it would have been for him to be as good or better in bed than my H, who knows me, my body, and my preferences through over a decade of experience with me, who has a body like a Greek god carved out of marble... I'll spare you further details, but I'm so obsessed with my husband. I didn't actually want anyone else but him. I wanted to be wanted by him, to feel that he was still excited about me sexually. I wasn't even physically attracted to my AP, and I struggled to come up with compliments for him so that he would continue to compliment me in return. I would be lying if I said it was about the prospective sex for me. I just wanted to feel desirable, and powerful with my sexuality, and validated... And I believe other WS when they say that's what their As were about, too.

I'm definitely not proud of my insecurity, vanity, "literal attention-whoring," whatever else you want to call that validation-seeking behavior. I also don't see these flaws as an excuse for my actions, or as contradictory to the fact that I betrayed and hurt my husband so horrifically. I don't think it "softens" the impact; the identification and resolution of those issues are just a direction I need to take when I seek to fix myself in order to become a safe partner again. Whether you believe, empathize with, or have compassion for such an explanation is entirely up to you; you are certainly not obligated to do so. And I think hikingout nailed it, as she so often does, when she said

There is little difference in the level of foolishness one feels for throwing away the best thing in their life for something fleeting and not really worth it.

But yeah, I think the conversation has been derailed again, and I apologize, Gemmy. As others have pointed out, you don't need to worry so much about others when you're here posting. We appreciate your words, we're mature enough to converse like adults and not be offended, and you deserve to write for you and receive the support you need.

If I had a WS who I found out was mocking me, belittling me and calling me stupid for not figuring out they were screwing around on me etc, I can’t imagine anything that could make me reconsider that those where and are their true feelings. I just can’t think of anything at all. That is just so far beyond the typical physical and emotional inventory of an affair.

I'm not sure that focusing on WPs former convictions has any sense in this case as she was clearly morally corrupted from day 1. It's a bit like asking a serial offender on the day they get arrested, what where their values. They will try to come up with something, explain it somehow, it won't fit their actions, they will change it and it will be just inconsistent and awkward. The correct answer would be, no values at all. The value was what was convenient or appealing at any given moment. She had no stable values around sex and many other things at all. If Gemmy wants to try to reconcile, I expect that the former offender must be a completely changed, new person anyway.

[This message edited by Itiswhatitis000 at 7:05 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

f I had a WS who I found out was mocking me, belittling me and calling me stupid for not figuring out they were screwing around on me etc, I can’t imagine anything that could make me reconsider that those where and are their true feelings. I just can’t think of anything at all. That is just so far beyond the typical physical and emotional inventory of an affair.

Agree. I find this incomprehensible.

If Gemmy wants to try to reconcile, I expect that the former offender must be a completely changed, new person anyway.

Also agree.

And as far as Wontbefooled, my reaction was maybe inappropriate. However, there have been many times you write things that are assertions that seem to come out of nowhere to me. So it’s not outlandish for me to think this one wasn’t different.

I in no way however wish to deny a bs their reality, you can kick rocks on that one. My advice isn’t just based in my personal experience I have been on this site for almost a decade. And for the first many years we had a ton more ws than we have now.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:08 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

And as far as Wontbefooled, my reaction was maybe inappropriate. However, there have been many times you write things that are assertions that seem to come out of nowhere to me. So it’s not outlandish for me to think this one wasn’t different.

I in no way however wish to deny a bs their reality, you can kick rocks on that one. My advice isn’t just based in my personal experience I have been on this site for almost a decade. And for the first many years we had a ton more ws than we have now.

Yes, to you. I put the bolded in.

I got an idea. Why don't you just steer clear of my posts moving forward, as much as you can at least. It's otherwise not going to lead to a productive interaction, and there is no need for you to butt in on an interaction between two MEN that was not even meant for you. And just because you don't find the tone to your liking or whatever, doesn't mean that other people don't find what I say helpful. I will do likewise and steer clear of yours. I'm not changing and clearly neither are you.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:37 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

My wife admitted that she wanted the sex as much as the validation. Maybe even more than the validation. Which makes logical sense because we had been going through a pretty long dry spell. The SSRI I was on not only killed my libido, but as an added bonus gave me anorgasmia (raises hand as a male who's faked orgasms).

I'm still trying to figure out which "reason" hurts more, or if it even matters. What really kills me is, I could have researched and found out much sooner that the SSRI was causing my issues instead of aging and gotten off of it much sooner. My wife also went through menopause at around the same time and never once complained about the lack of sex. As far as I knew, she'd lost interest as many women do when going through that. I had chalked it all up to "I guess this is what happens when some couples get older."

Boy, was I wrong. Menopause had the opposite effect on my wife. Her libido was supercharged while mine disappeared. She was/is craving it constantly. Meanwhile, I was suffering from well documented (but hardly ever mentioned by prescribing Dr's) side effects of SSRIs. Some real great communication we had, huh?

It took a couple of years for some of the more persistent side effects of the SSRI to go away, and some of it still lingers. Yes, years. Look up PSSD. My libido is finally back full force now, but the anorgasmia only started letting up within the last year, and that's gone from not being able to at all to just taking a long time, which has actually kind of turned into a superpower.

Gemmy, I'm sorry if I went off on a tangent, but several posts here hit a soft spot with me and I felt compelled to reply. I think I'm in the camp of pretty much everything is transactional. I don't see affairs as prostitution, but I do completely understand why you reached that conclusion.

I remember your JFO thread and how your wife behaved. I know why you're hurting as badly as you are. Do not ever, EVER apologize for a post like this. These forums are for you. And me. And every spouse suffering through the fallout of these terrible situations. You don't owe us anything. Not every post has to be in service of others. Sometimes you just have to purge the poison. I appreciate a lot of your posts, brother, but you're allowed to rail, scream, or vent whenever you need to. You're not obligated to try and make everyone else feel better.

[This message edited by Pogre at 7:46 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

I find this incomprehensible

Actually, as a dad and a much older brother I think that I can perhaps comprehend it. Many kids are perfectly capable of reckless cruelty. Think group of schoolyard bullies or the mean girls club. It gives them the feeling of being on top. Most of them grow out of it, but not all. From Gemmys story I don't get the notion that there was some profound evil at work here. More like developmental arrest. He also described her strange relations with her parents, which also points towards that.

[This message edited by Itiswhatitis000 at 7:44 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

I could name a dozen or so cases where wayward partners were sniggering and insulting their spouses while actively engaging with their AP.

​Take one of the most famous reconciliation stories on this forum, for instance. For the sake of the rules, I won't name them explicitly, but older users and forum historians will probably know exactly who I mean—the couple who used similar usernames, just with a feminine title added to one. In that case, it’s well-documented how she not only belittled him via text and email to her AP, but also sexually humiliated him in comparison to her AP. So yes, it absolutely happens. One case led to suicide for god sake. I can't speak to how often but that's hardly the point.

​It always blew my mind that this particular story is seemingly put on a pedestal as a "beautiful reconciliation." From my reading of it, it looked more like a man whose strict moral and religious beliefs forced him into a white-knuckle survival mode. He stayed with his partner simply because he felt he had no other choice. To make matters worse, her behavior was completely hand-waved away by others as a mere 'plea for validation'—the logic being that she only did it because it's what her AP wanted to hear. And people wonder why I question the 'validation-only' argument?

​See, the problem we have here is a massive contradiction: we are essentially being told, "Don't trust my words or actions from when I was privately discussing my actual thoughts, wants, and feelings. Instead, only trust my statements now that I've been caught out and proven to be a liar."

​So, when waywards are caught texting their APs, claiming they are masturbating over thoughts of how amazing their sex was—are we supposed to believe those were all lies? Or were they actually self-pleasing, but somehow only doing it for the "validation"? Sexting is extraordinarily common in affairs. If it really is all just about validation, are we honestly expected to believe they never truly self-pleased? Or can we be serious adults and admit the organs... The sex... Ahs somewhat of a role. At least often.

​@morbs, perhaps your situation was one where you were merely a 'validation prostitute', for lack of a better term. As I said, I'm sure those cases do exist. I make no claims about your specific scenario, but I simply cannot concede that this is true in every single case where it's claimed.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 7:37 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

I like how you capitalized MEN as if that has anything to do with anything. I didn’t know I needed a penis to be helpful on a public forum.

No, I don’t call you out because I think you will change. I call you out because sometimes what you say is utterly cruel to a new bs and I am not the only one who says that to you, sometimes even the bs says it to you. As long as we are both here I will comment however I want to same as you and I will disagree with you when needed.

I didn’t realize this was actual history for this poster, I do not think it’s a good sign she was making fun of the bs. Nor would I deny someone’s reality.

However that’s all for now on this thread.

And Dr my comments were specifically because sometimes the poster I was talking to does add things to his posts that haven’t been said. Not because I don’t believe this is possible. I often give him the benefit of the doubt that there are a lot of people and a lot of posts but there have been numerous times I have had to ask where or when did this happen in the time line. I do apologize for being wrong this time.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:45 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

I like how you capitalized MEN as if that has anything to do with anything. I didn’t know I needed a penis to be helpful on a public forum.

Yes, some interactions are meant to be between two MEN and as a WOMAN giving your take on what you feel my tone should be, you are far as I see it butting in.

I call you out because sometimes what you say is utterly cruel to a new bs and I am not the only one who says that to you, sometimes even the bs says it to you.

Again that is your opinion. I can guarantee you that nothing that I have said is anything that the BH did not already think of, and more to the point, is anything that the BH should not be thinking of.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:54 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

Anyway, back to regularly schedule programming. Gemmy, I hope you are doing okay, I am worried about you.

All models are wrong, some are useful.

Equating an affair to prostitution may be "wrong" in some aspects, but it very well may be useful enough for a betrayed partner to express and explore their own experience. Doesn’t have to be a perfect match to be an instrument of progress. IMHO, there are enough similarities that it was a useful model to me. And it can also bring insight to see where the analogy breaks down. Gemmy, I suspect your brain will process this framework, learn something, and move on.

I agree that we can boil down almost any relationship to transactional. However, that does not mean that I view my daughter anything at all like my accountant. Love brings specialness. Betrayal besmirches it. I think Gemmy is grieving the death of specialness.

I think you are exactly right, Ink. I think that’s somewhere you spent some time on as well. The two of you have many similarities.

I am truly sorry for this post. I usually try to write to help, this was more raw and hurtful than helpful.

I am sorry, it was selfish indulgence and hurtful to those I didn't intend. I am just suffering these past few days.

Gemmy, I truly believe there is no reason at all to apologize for this thread. You're in a world pain, feeling just as lost and confused as any other betrayed spouse. This isn’t the first time I seen a BH make the same comparison and I'm certain that it won't be the last. It was certainly raw! But it was also honest, authentic and vulnerable. And that, dear sir, is never a bad thing.

I understand and appreciate that you often write to help others and I'm quite certain that sharing your journey is doing just that and will continue to do so as long as your willing to share that journey. However, before you focus on paying it forward, i would encourage you to focus on your recovery, your healing, and finding your own peace of mind, body and spirit.

***

I do not believe that your wife is a prostitute. I do not believe that engaging in affairs is a form of prostitution. I do believe that allowing yourself to see her as such is not going to help you, her, your recovery and healing, your marriage or any chance at reconciliation. This is your rage, brother. This is the amygdala flipping the fuck out. And it's par for the course when surviving infidelity.

Mine snickered, laughed, insulted, and joked about how clueless I was, and unfortunately not just to AP but her friends as well.

I'm so very sorry that this is a part of the shitstorm you're trying to weather. I cannot imagine how incredibly painful and dehumanizing this must feel. You have my deepest sympathies.

I'm not an expert in psychology, so take this with the few grains of salt it deserves.

Over the years, plenty of members have described what it's like to live with someone with a narcissistic personality disorder. Your wife inviting her AP (and his wife) to your wedding and the pride she demonstrated regarding her ability to deceive you both hint at such an issue. As I understand it, narcissism manifests on a spectrum, from mild to accuse. In general, the cause is invariably deep insecurity and low self-esteem. Seeking external validation to cope with those powerful feelings is a bit like putting a bandaid on a mortal wound. No matter how often she changed the bandaid nor adjusted the dressing the bleeding wouldn't stop.

I'm not suggesting, btw, that you "should" feel sorry for her, nor have any compassion or empathy. That may happen for you in the somewhat distant future. Much of that depends upon how willing and able she is to own and fix her shit. Or, if she's unwilling or unable, you might never get there and simply walk away from a toxic relationship.

Human sexuality also manifests on a spectrum. I know this from personal experience, because I've slept with a lot of women, and from the one class in college. I've known women who were very comfortable with their sexual desires and proclivities. I've known women who were very reserved and desired the deeper emotional connection. I don't judge.

Personally, I fall somewhere in the middle of this spectrum. I'm somewhat adventurous and, at the same time, appreciate the deep emotional connection. What I generally found to be true was that the best sex was always based upon personal compatibility.

Keep on posting, Gemmy. This community has seen it all for the most part (we can still be surprised upon rare occasion).

DRSOOLERS, I'm almost hesitant to write this. However, your incessant tread-jacking and intolerable pontificating have exhausted my patience. If you cannot remain focused on the experiences, struggles and issues expressed by members, then perhaps this site isn't a good fit for you.

DRSOOLERS post #52:

could name a dozen or so cases where wayward partners were sniggering and insulting their spouses while actively engaging with their AP.

​Take one of the most famous reconciliation stories on this forum, for instance. For the sake of the rules, I won't name them explicitly, but older users and forum historians will probably know exactly who I mean—the couple who used similar usernames, just with a feminine title added to one. In that case, it’s well-documented how she not only belittled him via text and email to her AP, but also sexually humiliated him in comparison to her AP. So yes, it absolutely happens. One case led to suicide for god sake. I can't speak to how often but that's hardly the point.

I think I know who you are talking about. You bring up some very good points.

SI, I am noticing, tends to have a model of how WW-BH affairs go--which is what this one is and where I post the most. They seem to be viewed as a sort of communication problem, combined with bad coping mechanisms of the WW on top of it all: The WW doesn't know how to communicate her needs, as the thinking goes, so she becomes resentful and she blames her resentments on her BH. Which makes her ripe for an affair with "just anyone".

The problem with this is that it just does not jibe with what I've seen. Or at least it is missing a huge part of the story. Underlying all BS-WS affairs is a lack of integrity on the part of the WS--male or female. I think everyone here acknowledges that. However, in ALL TOO MANY WW-BH affairs posted on here, the BH was *already* a loving, devoted partner already doing everything their WW asked for. So it hardly makes sense that her cheating came down to communication issues festering as resentments. Instead, the WW's cheating seems to have came down (besides her lack of integrity that is) to a lack of attraction and/or respect for her BH. Oftentimes, that lack of respect and/or attraction for her BH was from the very beginning of their relationship.

This shows itself in very cruel ways, such as mocking BH to her friends and AP. How many stories do we read on here where WW and AP are talking about their future life together? Where do you think BH fits into this in their conversations? Exactly.

And the reasons why people want to reconcile in WW-BH affairs often comes down too predictably. The BH attempts reconciliation so often because he knows the courts will be harsh to him on custody/visitation, not to mention all the money he will lose. The WW wants R all too often because she knows her reputation will suffer and she will lose her lifestyle should she D. The POSOM? He can hardly hold down a job. Hey the same selfishness that got WW into her affair in the first place, is also what is driving her attempts at R.

And so I have to call this out as at least a possibility. Bluntly in fact. I mean, I wish it were not true, but it often is. Now, there is this one poster on here and a few more here and there, who say this is utterly cruel on my part, that I'm always being a meanie. To that one poster's credit she did admit (I think?) that her take on this situation with our friend Gemmy was wrong. I'd be willing to say that, sadly, there are many many situations where it is my read that was the more correct one. It is THE FACTS that are often utterly cruel, I'm just saying what I think they are.

Anyway to tie this back to our friend Gemmy, I posted all of the above as a longwinded way of saying that you are NOT alone. You are not alone in your WW's cruelty towards you. And there are a lot of great women out there who will appreciate you should you decide to D.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:25 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]